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Topic: New plans for Fox Lane quieter neighbourhood revealed

New plans for Fox Lane quieter neighbourhood revealed
26 Jul 2020 10:31 #5448

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Karl Brown wrote: I don't know the specific research being discussed but remain in long term shock from the analysis in the original Mini Holland bid document, an analysis I've since seen repeated in TfL papers. This shows a majority of car journeys to be cycleable and a significant minority walkable. It was instrumental in my own car miles dropping from 6000 pa at the time to last years 168.


Thank you for the graph, but - clearly - it doesn't show anything like the "vast majority" of "under a mile" journeys that are being claimed, and I remain sceptical.

Your drop from 6,000 miles per annum to 168 per annum is impressive, but - again - it doesn't seem to support the "less than a mile" assertion. A 6,000 mile pa use would average out at just over 16 miles per day. If the "vast majority" of those 16 miles per day were for trips of "under a mile" you would have been in, out, in, out and - presumably - shaking it all about...

I remain unconvinced of the 'vast majority under a mile' assertion, and it only adds to my suspicion that some of the 'data' we are having put before us requires far deeper scrutiny.
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New plans for Fox Lane quieter neighbourhood revealed
26 Jul 2020 18:19 #5449

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Alan Thomas may have missed my main theme in his latest posting and falls into a trap that’s worth highlighting. As I said, it’s for Adrian Day to prove his case but I do have an inkling that the vast majority of journeys will be under one mile; that’s all journeys and not those simply viewed from behind a windscreen, for how streets and roads are addressed as transport routes affects all, not simply those with, or having access to, a car.
What the previous chart does indicate is that the vast majority of Enfield’s car journeys were less than 3 miles. That’s walking distance for this household (and probably the bus back to be fair).
The working of my stats runs into the Bill Gates turning up at a Crisis at Christmas centre and suddenly everyone there is on average a multi-multi-millionaire analysis risk. In my case my extended driving holiday of well over 5000 miles might well have skewed Alan Thomas’ conclusion reached in his posting, if it happened. As with Covid, you need K as well as R; average without spread risks a misleading conclusion.
What we can say is that there are lots of relatively short journeys which are capable of being made by means other than a car and, like tax changes, the active travel initiatives now spooling rapidly out of Enfield, the GLA and HMG will see what various individual perceptions will conclude are some winners as well as some losers.
I’m all for fully evidenced commentary, helping lead to supportable concussions.

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New plans for Fox Lane quieter neighbourhood revealed
28 Jul 2020 13:44 #5453

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Unfortunately this is another example of where the council aren't listening to the residents. At the meeting in Palmers Green I would say at least 75% there said they didn't want it. They didn't say they wanted the scope of the scheme reduced, they said they didn't want it in any shape. This is just another example of council staff having to justify their existence.

The notion that traffic will evaporate is dubious at best, people don't get in their cars and drive around Palmers Green for a laugh. No one is leaving their car at home to do the weeks shopping or put their kids on a bike to do the school run. It's a fantasy. Anyone who rides a bike understands that an incline, let alone a hill, is tough; try getting on a bike and cycle up Fox Lane. Bike take up will be limited and short lived at best.

Green Lanes is already a traffic black spot, the idea that you would funnel cars up Aldermans hill and Cannon Lane/High Street on one side and Green Lanes and The Bourne the other is ignoring the reality. It doesn't take a genius to see that funnelling the cars up to Southgate roundabout is a ridiculous idea (which has been strangely left of the map and is currently another hold up point with the current traffic levels).

Finally, the traffic pre-lock down actually wasn't that bad most of the time, and at the moment it's quiet all the time. Pre-lockdown for an hour or so, twice a day during rush hour time, it was busy, but for the rest of the time it's insignificant to most of the roads. The Mall gets more traffic than most, but the other roads are generally fine, unless there's an accident on the North Circular. I think the only changes that need to be made are to just slow the cars shooting down the roads between Fox Lane and Aldermans Hill (Old Park Rd, Lakeside Rd, etc).
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New plans for Fox Lane quieter neighbourhood revealed
28 Jul 2020 23:03 #5456

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I'd say that Shane G. hasn't been listening! Just today Boris Johnson, also known as the Prime Minister, has been talking about encouraging people to exercise more frequently on feet and 'bike', and creating more cycle lanes and other changes to support that proposition. That coincidence does not directly affect the discussion in this thread, but it certainly suggests that there are more powerful voices suggesting that we can't go on automatically stepping into a car when walking, cycling or public transport would be a better bet.

As to the 'fantasy' of cycling or walking the school run perhaps that depends to a large extent on whether drivers begin walking, cycling or using public transport more often to the benefit of their health, London's air quality and kids freedoms.

It so happens that I Iive quite close to Fox Lane and it is fairly steep, but I'm 83 and cycle up it several times a week. Sure it's hard work on a 'bike, but certainly not steep enough to deter a healthy teenager or older person. Boris J. would certainly agree with that.

On one thing Shane G. and I can agree: the need to reduce traffic speed on the residential streets on the Lakes Estate. Fortunately the Council's plans will help with that.

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New plans for Fox Lane quieter neighbourhood revealed
30 Jul 2020 07:48 #5460

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Apologies I can’t find the ‘under a mile source‘ - seems I was wrong but these stats from a GLA report on Healthy Transport make the same point i.e. that a large percentage of car journeys in London can be made by bike or on foot. The good news is both national and local governments of different colours are now pushing policies, actions and funding to sustainable travel and our vehicle dominated residential streets will be getting the changes they need.

Attachments:

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New plans for Fox Lane quieter neighbourhood revealed
30 Jul 2020 09:39 #5462

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Adrian Day wrote: Apologies I can’t find the ‘under a mile source‘ - seems I was wrong but these stats...


Thank you for confirming that you were presenting falsehoods as 'facts'.

And please excuse me for not swallowing your attached 'stats' whole either. The 'Trip Distance' data comes from the 2013-14 TfL Travel Demand Survey, of which I am extremely sceptical. I cannot see how such data could be compiled accurately in the first place (does anyone here remember having been asked where they were going by the people taking this survey?) but in any case it will already be out of date. Covid-19 has changed everything.

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New plans for Fox Lane quieter neighbourhood revealed
30 Jul 2020 13:34 #5464

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Alan Thomas wrote:

Adrian Day wrote: Apologies I can’t find the ‘under a mile source‘ - seems I was wrong but these stats...


Thank you for confirming that you were presenting falsehoods as 'facts'.

And please excuse me for not swallowing your attached 'stats' whole either. The 'Trip Distance' data comes from the 2013-14 TfL Travel Demand Survey, of which I am extremely sceptical. I cannot see how such data could be compiled accurately in the first place (does anyone here remember having been asked where they were going by the people taking this survey?) but in any case it will already be out of date. Covid-19 has changed everything.


Alan Thomas is banned from the forums for calling another member a liar. Adrian, on the other hand, had grace to apologise for making a claim that he could substantiate.

And why ask Adrian for the source of his information if you're not going to trust any statistics about travel?
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