Found in the Town Hall: the "Palmers Scream"

Published: 10 April 2015

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We have obtained photographic evidence that the "old document" discovered by workmen in the former Southgate Town Hall does exist and its content is, to say the least, extraordinary.

The photographs, supplied by an anonymous source, show an old scroll that appears to have been found in a small wooden case. There are also photographs of the writing on the scroll.

The text of the scroll is difficult to read from the photographs. The first photograph refers to witches from Winchmore Hill and to Broomfield Park. The second part of the text refers to the "Charm of the Palmers Scream".

We don't have any information about the current whereabouts of the "Palmers Scream" scroll and handbill, but will do our best to find out as soon as possible.

scroll as discovered

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Posts in discussion: Found in the Town Hall: the "Palmers Scream"

Garry Humphreys posted a reply

#1143

10 Apr 2015 12:26

All very fascinating, but what needs to be established is the provenance of this collection, and for this purpose it should be in the care of the Enfield Local Studies Department. Then it needs to be analysed, to establish the date or dates of the two documents by dating paper, ink, orthography, etc.

And where in the Town Hall or library building was this found? Was it anywhere near the former Local Studies Department? Do local historians know anything about witches in the area?

If supposed to be genuine - or a copy of earlier documents - does the physical evidence support any of the assertions - for example, is there mortar at the bottom of the lake (and which lake)? Are there corresponding willow trees?

The photograph of the box shows another document, folded, possibly a map, with part of the name 'Southgate' clearly shown. Is this connected (e.g., showing the location of the lake, willow trees, etc.)?

As a member of the Society for the Rehabilitation of Semi-Colons, I'm intrigued to see how many are used in these documents, as well as the use of quotation marks, which looks modern, rather than old, as is the use of 'they' and 'their' for one child, instead of 'it/its' - another modern aberration! ('Its shadow', not 'their shadow'.)

But technical analysis must be the starting point, to establish the dates of the documents.

Martin Jenkins posted a reply

#1149

13 Apr 2015 15:29

This is indeed a fascinating and potentially important find. I have a friend who is an academic who specialises in English witchcraft of the Late Medieval/Early Modern period – I will contact her and see if she can shed any light on the matter.

The use of ‘they/theirs’ for ‘it/its’ is not necessarily an indication of modern provenance: both Chaucer and the King James Bible (to name but two) do occasionally use ‘they’ and ‘theirs’ in the singular.

Karl Brown posted a reply

#1153

15 Apr 2015 11:30

I’m pleased to read there’s going to be some expertise looking at this. The Enfield Independent’s news site is currently full of spookiness centred on the 1977 Enfield Haunting in Brimsdown, but also highlighting spookiness in the Crown and Horseshoes pub in Horseshoe Lane and the Hop Poles in Baker Street. (No mention of the Fox’s ghost.) Most scary of the Enfield examples seems to be the speeding phantom black coach in Bell Lane which passed right through Boys Brigade member Robert Bird in 1961. (The ultimate solution for Shared Space on our roads?)

They make no reference to the Town Hall manuscript, although if that’s only just been discovered I wouldn’t expect it to be in their archive from which they’ve drawn the examples.

David March posted a reply

#1156

15 Apr 2015 13:16

Here is a photo of one of the Grovelands Witches seen lying in wait in the early morning mist in the park recently

PGC Webmaster posted a reply

#1157

15 Apr 2015 19:18

Great picture, David! But the witches mentioned in the scroll are hopefully safely buried in Broomfield Park.

Still haven't laid eyes on the actual scroll, but another photograph has appeared on Sue B's website Palmers Green Jewel in the North attrilbuted to Enfield Local Studies Archive. But they deny all knowledge.

Various theories have been expounded here and elsewhere. Garry H. smells a rat with some of the spelling, and we're promised some advice from an academic expert in witchcraft, which might clarify things a bit.

On Bowes & Bounds MIchael D. suspects a late 19th century forgery.

Let's hope that we can get our hands on the scroll soon so that someone can do some serious investigation.

Garry Humphreys posted a reply

#1158

16 Apr 2015 09:40

... and one other thing: How are the screamers to maintain the all-important ring (established by holding hands in a circle) if they have to point at each of the trees during the ritual?

Garry Humphreys posted a reply

#1159

16 Apr 2015 09:45

Can Martin Jenkins give me a couple of examples (from Chaucer and the KJV) of 'they' and 'their' being used in the singular? (Not a trick question; I'd genuinely like to know!)

Martin Jenkins posted a reply

#1160

16 Apr 2015 10:37

Garry, happy to oblige!

The reference in Chaucer is from the Canterbury Tales:

“And whoso fyndeth hym out of swich blame,
They wol come up […]”

It’s a little hard to tell in the Middle English, but whoso is a quantified expression, like whoever, that is syntactically singular, but then is paired to the syntactically plural they.

The website:

englishbibles.blogspot.co.uk/2006/09/singular-they-in-english-bibles.html

has a full list of singular usage in the KJV, Tyndale, Geneva and other English bibles.

P.S. My academic friend has just got back to me. I will edit her reply and will post it here later today!

Basil Clarke posted a reply

#1162

16 Apr 2015 19:12

Martin Jenkins wrote:

The reference in Chaucer is from the Canterbury Tales:

“And whoso fyndeth hym out of swich blame,
They wol come up […]”

It’s a little hard to tell in the Middle English, but whoso is a quantified expression, like whoever, that is syntactically singular, but then is paired to the syntactically plural they.

Yes, the -eth ending shows that "whoso" is definitely singular.

Another interesting point is that "they", "them", "their" etc arrived in English during the Middle English period as imports from Scandinavian languages. The Old English plural pronouns were insufficiently distinguishable from some singular forms - they all began with "h", if I remember correctly - so the Scandinavian forms were used instead. But I think that Chaucer himself uses the old forms sometimes and the new forms on other occasions. It wouldn't be surprising if some people got confused and started using the new "th-" forms instead of singular "h-" forms - an example of hypercorrection, I suppose.

I'll be very interested to read what your academic friend thinks.

Martin Jenkins posted a reply

#1164

17 Apr 2015 09:30

So, there were witches in Winchmore Hill!

I received the following e-mail from my good friend Dr Susan Devereux, who is a lecturer in Early Modern History and specialises in witchcraft beliefs and trials of that period:

Obviously, without seeing the documents, I cannot say if they are genuine but I must say that they have the ring of truth. Your area of Middlesex had a reputation as a hotbed of supernatural activity in the Early Modern period. Most famous, of course, is the Witch of Edmonton: the witch in question was Elizabeth Sawyer, executed at Tyburn in 1621.

There are many other records of witchcraft accusations and trials in Middlesex… [I’ve omitted a fairly lengthy list here. MJ]

Most excitingly there is a passing reference to ‘the witches of Wynsmorehyll’ (Winchmore Hill) in an undated chapbook called The Most Wicked Worke of Wretched Witches.

Unfortunately there are no further details given about them. The chapbook is probably late 16th / early 17th Century.

I will do some more research, going through county records, assizes etc. etc. to find out more about your local witches. I’ll keep you posted!

P.S. The ‘charm’ against witches given in the manuscript is fairly elaborate but is not unheard of – off the top of my head I can think of at least three other rituals of a similar nature. It would be interesting to know if there were any other finds on the same site: shoes or ‘witch bottles’ were often built into walls as protection against witches.

Obviously, this is a tantalisingly brief reference but hopefully Dr Devereux will turn up more. It doesn't of course prove that the Town Hall documents are contemporary but it does suggest that there was a local tradition of witchcraft beliefs.

Karl Brown posted a reply

#1190

02 May 2015 11:15

Flicking through Baskervilles old photo books this morning over coffee I find number 12, Yacht Lake, ie the boating lake. It’s very clear that the surrounding trees at this stage are NOT willows and more strangely there appears to be several adults dressed as children in what is quite a large crowd. And then there is the bizarre colouring. What is going on?

Karl Brown posted a reply

#1317

20 Jun 2015 00:27

I spent Friday evening with my neighbours, Diane and Patrick, after the Palmers Scream documents simply appeared on one of the walls in their Baskervilles Tea Shop. Not a Police issue – no break in, nothing taken, rather the opposite – but the Council Press Office did send a photographer who documented pretty much the whole building, outside and in.

I was finally able to talk to Professor Owen Davies, specialist in witchcraft and ghosts, who had apparently been examining the material earlier in the week. He hadn’t seen the pieces for a few days having been away from the office. One rumour was they had been at Walker school late this week but no one was sure. CCTV drew a blank, just going fuzzy before and after the appearance.

A sign we all wondered, but if so, of what? I’ve no idea, nor have Patrick and Diane. For me it was certainly interesting to see what all the recent comment has been about. I took a photo.

I don’t think they have any intention of touching them for a while. Maybe hoping they’ll simply disappear the same way they turned up. Any ideas anyone?

Alex Woolf posted a reply

#1318

20 Jun 2015 06:34

I can say with reasonable certainty that these documents were at Walker School as late as Thursday morning, as I delivered a talk about them to a classroom full of excited and awestruck children. The event was covered by the local press, and photos were taken, so hopefully a picture in next week's Advertiser should authenticate my story. As to what happened to them after that, my memory gets a little fuzzy...

Karl Brown posted a reply

#1550

07 Sep 2015 12:27

Fantastic PG Festival but the Handbill has gone! Just when the sun went down behind Broomfield House casting its shadow onto the Scream stall it was no more. Not in Baskervilles - where it was borrowed from for the event. Nowhere that we can find. Photo below before it turned up framed in Baskervilles.
All help needed on this one.

David March posted a reply

#1570

12 Sep 2015 11:36

People were so busy watching 'Ghostbusters' on the bowling green last week that no one noticed what happened to this tree by the boating pond (somehow captured by official ghostbuster, Barbara).

Karl Brown posted a reply

#1746

29 Oct 2015 15:28

Never mind the old Town Hall, "Palmers Scream" now turns up on my kitchen table. Definitely looking like time to panic

Karl Brown posted a reply

#1749

01 Nov 2015 13:00

One rather extraordinary evening. What now for Palmers Scream?

Karl Brown posted a reply

#1755

02 Nov 2015 13:36

Even the Lost Items seemed to be joining in

Karl Brown posted a reply

#2317

11 Oct 2016 09:22

Losing the 9th willow surrounding the boating pond is potentially a game changer for Palmers Green (Scream). As the old manuscript found last year clearly stated:-

And the nine trees must remain, for it was said that if there should ever be less than nine then the witches may return and the Terror live again even worse than before.

Fortunately the Friends of Broomfield Park have anticipated any problems and pre-dug a large new hole ready to rebury any of the N21 witches which make it out of the boating lake post Halloween. Phew.

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