Forum topic: What a street in a Quieter Neighbourhood might look like

I appreciate you looking at Devonshire for 5 minutes, but it's not really akin to living in the street. The problem of rat-running in the street is real. We get many cars dropping people for the station at the end of the street in the morning and driving down it or reversing out. We have people parking in the street at all times in the week week to use Morrisons and the fast food places in the Triangle (often chucking their rubbish onto the street when they leave). The juice bar attracts a certain clientele of young men in fast cars, many of whom have ignored parking restrictions at that end of the street (raised with the juice bar, Council and the police). The bin lorries know this road as a short cut. At night, the speed of traffic becomes a problem and the number of cars parking in the road to use restaurants, pubs and clubs in the high street increases phenomenally, such that residents who work shifts, lates or nights often have to park several streets away. Unlike other parallel streets, the road is one way (so no need to worry about stopping for traffic coming in the other direction), dead straight and without barriers or cameras. We regularly see speeding traffic, particularly after midnight in the early hours and, with the high number of families on the street, many parents are concerned about accidents (not in the early hours so much, obviously). Also, with our regular street play events (which I know you don't like) we're well aware that many non-residents still think they have a right to use the street, despite there being THREE 'road closed' signs in the street entrance (they don't - we have a legal order, but we tend to be leniency much to our detriment). We've had to call the police twice to these events to deal with drivers who have ignored our stewards and put the lives of children at risk. I'm not against cars on roads and I believe there's a right to drive. But rights bring responsibilities, and I'm all for the removal or curtailment of rights where drivers cannot be responsible themselves. I also think cycle lanes will be fabulous (having spent much time studying North Holland) and welcome the disruption it takes to bring them in.

Paul Mandel - also not scientific but yesterday I sat with my wife for about 45 minutes having a coffee in the cafe next to the exit of Devonshire. Car after car came out of the exit. Almost exclusively they shot out of the exit if they could or braking hard if they couldn't - typical ran running behaviour as you must surely understand as a keen driver. Why do people have to prove their rat run is saving time by driving fast? Also last time I visited that road I witnessed a hot hatch going over 40 - I can give you the date time for your 0928 on 11th Feb for your FOI It must be a horrible road to live on and needs to be filtered to stop the rat running.

I can't speak for the residents of other roads but Devonshire Road acts as short cut which allows cars otherwise travelling down Aldermans Hill and then North along Green Lanes to avoid the lights at the triangle and two pedestrian crossings. There is no oncoming traffic, no speed bumps and quite often you even get let out straight away because northbound traffic on Green Lanes is held for you by the crossing.

That is an enormous incentive to use Devonshire Road and it's no surprise that so many people do it, especially during rush hour. While most people drive sensibly a significant minority drive much too fast for safety, because they can.

Closing Devonshire Road would have the effect of pushing more traffic into Green Lanes, which frankly is where that traffic should be. Whether it would push traffic into Old Park Road is open to question. It would be very easy to try it and see.

There's already a significant amount of rat-running along Old Park Rd, and I think a bit on Grovelands too.

Got to wait four weeks for the FOI, I’ve asked for practically every street in the entire Fox Lane QN area In the meantime, taking some of the points and criticisms on board, I went back today at 5:45 p.m . (rush hour) and did another 5 minutes observation, opposite the nail bar. This time, six vehicles in the five minutes. A train obviously arrived halfway through that period- and yes – as I walked up Devonshire Road afterwards, there was more traffic. But, this is for only a couple of hours each working day.

I agree that closing off Devonshire Road will not have the same knock on effect as closing of Old Park Road for example.

The changes to the Alderman’s Hill A105 junction, arising from mini-Holland, will probably increase traffic on Devonshire Road . Noting that some avid supporters of the segregated cycle lanes are also calling for the closing of Devonshire Road and others, I do wonder if this is a case of people wanting to enjoy what benefits, but causing the social and environmental costs to others – not intentionally of course.
You must remember that many people live on main roads too.

The reason why I believe mini-Holland will Increase traffic on Devonshire Road are.

1. There will be reduced capacity at the main road junction, leading to more queuing Alderman’s Hill eastbound, so more drivers cutting through
2. Drivers have been able to turn around at the Triangle and go back up Aldermans Hill. They won’t be able to do that with the soon to be constructed, new layout, so will be included to drive up Devonshire Road to Turn around or get home another way e.g. Fox Lane.

As for blocking off Devonshire Road at one end, and for the purposes of this comment I will assume it to be at the southern end; a number of problems arise:

1. What do you do about the pay and display parking spaces and ....
2. Access to the yards behind the shops. Can the road be blocked further town without adverse impact on residents there?
3. Residents will have to turn their cars round. Often there will not be space and this means long and hazardous reversing manoeuvres.
4. Difficulties for dustcarts and other commercial vehicles which will have to reverse the whole distance up the road. You wouldn’t want your children playing out then, either. Although I appreciate this won’t be a constant problem, it will be a regular one.

So, these may not be a big enough issue for some, but other residents may take a different view.

I really do empathise with Richard and Hall about the antisocial behaviour including speeding and no doubt other bad driving. It exists in all the roads around us. You should join me and PCSOs on the next community Road Watch in Palmers Green. By the way – Hal, I was misquoted in the Enfield Advertiser- I do not think it is a waste of time- quite the opposite.

Furthermore, I do not like one way residential roads either and agree that they encourage speeding. It bewilders me why the Council should have introduced a one way system for the Wolves Lane QN.

A couple of things though, if you live in or on the edge of the town centre where considerable numbers of young adults gather on Friday and Saturday nights – you will surely expect a degree of annoyance and trouble. Could I dare suggest that those problems start to trouble people much more once they start a family.

With regard to shoppers using Devonshire Road at all times, surely the CPZ Monday – Saturday 8am - 6:30pm deters them. After 6:30 I can appreciate it being annoying if you can’t park near your house and really really rage inducing when they sit in their own cars eating their peri-peri or KFC before chucking their packaging into the street.. All this will be worsened in the borough generally with mini-Holland, with a loss of parking elsewhere.

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned in this conversation, but has everybody looked in detail at Waltham Forest's 'villagisation' or low-traffic neighbourhood scheme? www.standard.co.uk/news/london/mini-holland-scheme-in-walthamstow-hailed-as-major-success-as-traffic-falls-by-half-a3389936.html

The point is that they did not 'filter' (prevent through motor traffic on) just one or two rat-runs, which would have simply worsened the problem on neighbouring streets. They took a whole cell of residential streets and by using filters strategically they made it impossible for motor traffic to drive through the cell as a whole, deflecting through traffic back onto main roads. Everyone resident can still access their own street by car, some have minutes added to their journey. The result was not the displacement of all the traffic onto main roads, but only some - the main roads can handle it, and a huge number of car journeys in the area (taking the main roads into account as well) simply evaporated. 10,000 fewer per day, if you believe the article, based on WF council data. And no collisions in a year.

The effect on those residential streets has been amazing, and a whole safe network for walking, cycling and playing has opened up (objectors talk about 'closed' roads, but the opposite is true, unless you insist on driving everywhere). Do we not think that the inconvenience of having a few minutes more driving time to reach our streets is worth it for giving those streets back to people and reclaiming it from thoughtless through traffic? The emergency services have raised no objections, and given the health benefits of more walking and cycling and fewer collisions, it's really not surprising.

Closure at Alderman's Hill end is not best option imo. This allows free access to all the shoppers and delivery vans via Green Lanes, as witnessed during the closure for Thames Water. The CPZ does not deter - much idling occurs in resident bays with drivers ready to go if a traffic warden appears and many just take the risk if they're only going to be 5 mins.
A serious consequence of the previous mid-point closure which gave access via Green Lanes was the huge number of vans hurtling down to the Close (where road turns at right angle) and doing speedy 3-point turns at exactly the point where most pedestrians cross, before accelerating back to Green Lanes.
Preferred option is closure after the Mews at Green Lanes end. No disruption or incovenience to businesses, parking bays (at corner A. Hill) or use of Mews at either end. Wide turning point for residents and access vehicles at the Close, designated turning spaces as provided during TW works, 'keep clear' box at A. Hill entry/exit point.
Added effect of the businesses seeming more part of the (Green Lanes) High Street, separate to the residential area.
Would love to hear feedback from people on this option.