Forum topic: Waltham Forest residents (and businesses) are already benefiting from Mini-Holland

David, I don't think it's fair to say that Sue's views reek of a sense of entitlement - though I do think that this attitude is quite common among car drivers. In Sue's case though her concerns aren't so much about the effect on car drivers as about what she sees as the probable negative effects on bus passengers and pedestrians and the effects on air quality of increase congestion.

Sue's views aren't based on a sense of entitlement, but on rather pessimistic assumptions that people won't change their behaviour in response to Cycle Enfield. I think they will and that car traffic levels will reduce, speeds will reduce, people will drive more safely, cycling by non-"cyclists" will increase and air and noise pollution will be cut.

I share Sue's concerns about removal of some bus stops and bus lanes and I hope the engineers will have another look at these. But the inconvenience to bus passengers, though real, will be minor compared to the benefits to everyone. In any case, it is essential to rectify the grossly unfair treatment of people who wish to get around by bike - it has been a feature of our roads for far too long.

Your comments about not allowing cyclists to develop their own sense of entitlement are spot on (though unfortunately this has already happened with some cyclists - to some extent this is cyclists getting their own back in response to their treatment by drivers)., but it's still completely unjustified - two wrongs don't make a right). I think it's important that where cycle lanes pass through shopping centres they are designed to moderate cycle speeds and, where pedestrians have priority, make this clear to riders.

I think that much of the opposition to Cycle Enfield stems from a lack of imagination about how things could be different and a feeling that we just have to put up with things as they are. Unless we take some bold steps things won't just stay as they are, they'll get even worse.

A few things struck me: “the A105 is a major thoroughfare”. Dead right, one of the three main north / south axes in LBE. So I’m always intrigued by all the dead vehicles blocking one of its two lanes over pretty much most of its (non-High Street) length. (Vehicles are dead on average 97% of their life which shows what a strangely expensive single-owned asset they are.) If non congested driving was the issue I would personally be looking at that particular use of public space for appropriateness.

Following forecast driver frustration, …., “the only way for drivers to avoid it will be..”. Well I thought, they could still use it, or could revert to the options available to the roughly one third of non-car owning households in LBE, or alternatively walk, cycle, bus, taxi or other means in several of their journey cases, even if not all. Certainly these are not binary issues, as is the default setting in many assumptions, car OR bike, and others.

And then I thought, much of his is useful consultation input, and that’s its best place.

I do wonder what people mean when they say ''cyclists have a sense of entitlement.'' From my perspective as someone who cycles I would say that being able to reach speeds of 20mph+ (usually still slower than practically any car) is necessary if you want to be in a safe road position. It is a reaction to the environment. For example that video of the person cycling through Green Lanes was showing bad cycle craft. He was riding in the door zone, not taking a strong position at junctions, and filtering on the left.

I’m sorry if I misjudged Sue’s approach, or was ham-fisted in my choice of words. ‘Sense of entitlement’ does sound pejorative, but it’s the nearest I can get in reflecting on a mindset acquired living in a society which has consistently boosted the power drivers already have as a consequence of the machine they’re in. As things stand by their physical power vehicles push other road users down the priority scale, corralling walkers on pavements and on designated pedestrian crossings, and have now done this for so long that people take it as the natural way for things to be. Thus we’ve arrived at point where bikers are thought of as nuisance, not as person with an equal right to choose.

Unless I’m on a road like the North Circular or the A10 – which are necessarily motorways in all but name – sharing and an equal right to choose is the key need because I am one person whether in a car, on a bike or on my feet.

I enjoyed Karl’s sideways swipe at state of mind which thinks cycle lanes get in the way, parked cars don’t. A state of mind which runs parallel with the view I thought Sue was expressing.

On Tom’s wonderings about why I and others notice cyclists’ sense of entitlement, it’s not about position on the road, at least not in the situation he discussed. Riding down Palmers Green high street I’d certainly expect to be a car door’s width from parked cars even if I was doing well below 30kph. On the other hand if I was riding on a cycle lane through a high street I wouldn’t – which I’ve seen at home and abroad – ride head down, ear plugs in listening to something or other on the radio. That sort of behaviour expects pedestrians to get out of the way though walkers have as much right to cross the road as bikers have to cycle down it. Bear in mind too, that if the pavement is crowded, it can be very difficult to see, and impossible to hear, a cyclist coming.

I think that people who cycle receive disproportionate criticism. There is a complaint about wearing ear phones, but, really, what's the problem? Are we going to force all drivers to keep their windows open because that certainly blocks out more sound? How about the radio or music you play in your car? How about hands free kits which are shockingly not illegal? My point being that any infraction that generates wrath in some people is minor compared to the common place behaviour of you see in drivers simply by the physical differences between the two modes. I don't wear ear phones myself because I think it is too distracting, but that's besides the point.

I also think there is a fine balance between pedestrian crossings. On the one hand people walking are treated badly with slow staggered crossing of which there are too few of. On the other hand, anyone using a road is trying to get somewhere, so they need to keep with some sort of reasonable pace. Now I would expect a maximum speed of 20 mph on streets with pedestrian above a certain amount, but I also would expect someone one to at least look when crossing such a street.

I find all this very perplexing, though, because I've never really had a problem with people cycling while walking or with people walking while I'm cycling. These stories about constantly almost being hit by cyclists or pedestrians walking out without looking seem alien to me and the stats don't back up their claims.

Reading about shared space I still maintain my scepticism. The Dutch system of 'sustainable safety' separates traffic by its volume and speed. The very reason we have pavements in the first place is because car traffic and foot way traffic do not mix very well. There is a physical difference between the two that we cannot simply change with a few laws. Indeed, I think that giving the 'weakest' road users the highest place in the hierarchy is the opposite of 'sharing' and treating the users with equality. Because of their differences, you want the environment and laws to prioritise the vulnerable users.

Bicycle traffic is a sort of third class. Mobility scooter users fit well with this due to the similarity in mass and speed. They suffer similar problems that people cycling do because the current infrastructure doesn't cater for their needs very well.

Of course such a system of segregation is only necessary when the volume and speeds of motor traffic is too high. The majority of other residential roads should be closed to through traffic via filtered permeability and one way systems. It is these roads that are not suitable as thoroughfares.

The problem with something like Green Lanes is that it is both a 'place' (around the shopping centre) and a 'route'. Simply changing the paving won't alter the fact that a high number of vehicles travel through it every day. However, giving more crossings to pedestrians, allowing people to cycle on tracks, and narrowing the carriageway to slow down traffic are things you can do that tip the balance in favour of the other users.

No shared space scheme I've seen has changed the dynamics of the environment.

No, not a sideways swipe, I’m happy to be direct, rather I am long standingly genuinely puzzled why a series of dead cars are OK to block out effectively 50% of a major route. This is very rare, prime north / south thorough space, and handing substantive parts of its functionality away, I presume so some people can walk the few yards to their front doors rather than walking a little bit more, is an interesting balance. It re-struck me recently on a bus trip when I sat front-top. But I can see your own point in opening up a chasm in some statements and arguments now being shouted about.

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I can’t answer all of them . It would take too long.

From Tom Mellor: ...Don't be so sure that the disabled, elderly, and parents with young kids cannot cycle. In the latter case, there are many things parents can do: cargo bikes, trailers, etc. For the disabled and elderly, .....

Ok lovely whirring in your electric buggy around in a purpose built cycle and accessible suburb in Holland on a nice sunny day. Fine. Incorporate all of it into a New Town. Lovely. But it won’t fit in the Edwardian and Interwar suburbs of North London

But my Mum and Dad who are elderly and disabled would not want to get into one of those even if they were physically able to with their arthritic joints and numerous other ailments. These days they rely heavily on taxis ambulances and very occasionally still make short trips in their cars.

On young kids: Two years ago when my son started school I took him on a cycle trailer, which he could pedal with me. He quickly started protesting about this mode of transport. It was cold , wet and far too admired. Totally un-cool. It’s been rusting in a corner of the garden for the past 21 months. Still at least he’s his own bike. But cycling with him too school is not yet a viable option time wise. And even if the future A105 cycle superhighway was a direct route for us. It would be of little use, because we’d still have to walk across junctions for him to be safe.

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More from David Hughes: Meanwhile cyclists, walkers, and perhaps most of all children, whose independence has been curtailed beyond recognition since I was young.

David, you are substantially wrong. There are plenty of other ways children have been able to build their independence. But, it isn’t because there are more cars that children don’t play in the streets, it is because we has parents have become more protective of our children and risk adverse. As a consequence of this the child mortality rate from road traffic accidents has plummeted. Children start making their own way to school from the age of 10, just as was the case 40 years ago when I was that age. And what better way to look forward to independence as an adult than to take your first driving lesson on your 17th Birthday. I couldn’t wait to get behind a wheel and my six year old is looks like he’ll be the same. Driving is fantastic...It makes it possible to go mountain biking in the Brecon Beacons and Snowdonia at the weekend. If you’ve got a decent sports car you can hone your cornering skills around county lanes. Best of all, you car is a great way to express your individuality along with nice clothes, jewellery, fashionable clothes etc. You can modify it, darken the windows, lower the suspension, add your own lights, bodyskirts, spoilers etc. and add a loud exhaust to annoy members of the Green Party. [Content deleted by administrator] Yeah riding a bike can be cool if you’ve got all the right kit too. If you haven’t got the right cycling kit, just like having the wrong car it can be devastatingly un-
cool. Each to their own.

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Oh, and here’s the tiny trendy bit of Walthamstow Village in the rain. Where have all the crowds of cycling diners gone?

[This post has been edited because the writer was "playing the man, not the ball" and because his opinions about schools are irrelevant to the argument. Please restrict comments to the arguments for and against cycle lanes.]

Paul, you keep using the straw man that we say every journey could or should be made by bike. We aren't. Neither is it true that because some journeys cannot be made by bike, all journeys cannot be made by bike.

And yes it is clear that every Dutch city is a New Town of which the oldest are from 1980 rather than a varied mixture like most other countries...